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« Kevin’s flags for Free Frank Warner | Main | Which Beatle did you admire most? John or Paul? »

March 19, 2007

Comments

George

Ghandi just dropped off my admiration list.

Christopher Taylor

Yes, he said the Jews should have all died rather than fight back, that everyone should in every situation always engage in nonviolent opposition to evil. Always.

I've written at length about this on my blog, but in short: using the same tool for all tasks is the sign of an idiot, not a genius. The reason Gandhi's efforts (and MLK's) worked was because both men appealed to the governments at hand, calling for and shaming them into living up to their stated principles.

The Nazis were living up to their stated principles and thus could not be so swayed. The same is true for Islamofascists.

Kevin

Wow. It's shocking, yet it's uncomfortably not. Is he saying that slavery is only slavery if you admit it?

Ghandi has rolled of the list of 'cool peaceniks', and left the list blank :(

Would he have said to slaves in 1850 America:

"This manslaughter must be stopped. You are losing; if you persist, it will only result in greater bloodshed. Slave owners are not bad men... Let them take possession of your bodies and efforts. You will give all these, but neither your souls, nor your minds."

Screw you, friggin' hippie.

Frank Warner

Not a proud moment, to be sure.

Kevin

Man, this really P'd me O. Pacifism is fine if you want to practice it yourself and toss your life away to make the enemy feel bad, but requesting it from a country of individuals of whom you are not a part... that's scumbag territory.

jj mollo

Well said Christopher and I agree with you, but people should remember that Ghandi was a religious leader. He really believed what he was saying as an appropriate moral policy. (Theoretically, the Pope believes roughly the same thing.) Ghandi was elevated to his level of leadership not because of his flexible understanding of how to make political process from a subordinate position, but because the people recognized that he was absolutely inflexible and that his strategy was the only one that could work in their situation.

The Brits elevated someone else because their situation was different.

Frank Warner

There also is the theory that those who publicly demand an uncompromisingly non-violent approach secretly depend on -- even root for -- democratic powers to remove, by force or threat of force, those biggest obstacles to peace, freedom and justice.

Christopher Taylor

I liked Orwell's position on the pacifist when their nation is fighting evil: they are objectively in support of that evil.

Anti War protesters and hard leftists tend to hate Orwell now like they did when he was alive.

Boratino

What Gandi did was he just shook an air - Brit's were wise to ignore his nonsense letter.

BUT G.W. Bush's ancestors had direct business with Nazis.

Bush Dynasty - Nazi connections

Prescott Sheldon Bush -- Best known for serving in the US armed forces in Arizona during WWI spent defacing Geronimo's grave and grave-robbing the skull for his germanic secret piracy club "Skull and Bones Society" headquartered at Yale, University. What he is not famous for was his financier banker support of Adolph Hitler, the Nazi Storm Troopers, Auschwitz and death camps. In his quest to get rich Prescott Bush collaborated with the Nazis before war broke out and through the year after Pearl Harbor. Prescott Bush became Hitler's banker when he became Fritz Thyssen's banker. The incredible loot Fritz's father made in steel, coal, and railroads during WWI was hidden in Holland. Shortly afterwards he was looking to spread some in America and opened a front operation through E.R. Harriman in New York City. In fact, reports indicate that the Bush connections to Nazi money continued through 1951. The reason Auschwitz was located where it was is because that is near where Fritz Thyssen's coal, steel, and railroads were. That made it possible for I.G. Farben to synthesize fuel from coal gasification for the war machine there, which made it also possible to synthesize rubber there. I.G. Farben also made Zyklon B gas, enough to annihilate two million people according to the trial testimony of the Auschwitz camp commander Rudolf Hoess.

Fritz Thyssen published a book titled "I Paid Hitler" in 1941. It described how Thyssen sponsored the Storm Troopers of Ernst Roehm as early as 1933, allowing them to build up to 4,500,000 strong to take over Germany. But in 1942, even after Pearl Harbor, Prescott Bush and his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, were administering Thyssen's money until forced by the US government to halt (temporarily). The Bush family got rich stealing everything these people had. It stole their children, stole their homes, stole their belongings, stole their clothes, stole their hair, stole their freedom, stole their government, stole their work, stole their health, stole their lives.

Kevin

Sure you could read Boratino's Bush hatefest above, but if you REALLY want to show how much you hate the Bush family, you should go to the place that he copied it from.

Like everything else bad in the world, Ghandi suggesting appeasement to the Brits is clearly GWB's fault.

Sheesh.

jj mollo

Borat, Have you ever heard of Lyndon LaRouche? He's a very smart man. I think you and he would get along well.

The problem here is that rich people group together into their own society. If there are 6 degrees of sparation in the rest of the world, there are only 3 degrees of separation in the world of the rich. Everybody knows somebody who knows everybody by way of their first cousin. Any individual rich person can be connected with any rich/powerful evil-doer very easily. Another problem is that rich people are loyal to other rich people. They tend to trust other rich people and distrust not-quite-rich people, and abhor the poor. Although their first loyalty might be to their nation, it might take them a while to get the memo on who the enemy might be. Prescott Bush is connected with William Paley and Averell Harriman as well. Doesn't it make just as much sense to give him credit for the accomplishments of those people as it does to implicate him in the misdeeds of "cher Fritz".

You can't possibly know for certain what the meaning of this ancient evidence might be. Anyone with money had connections with the Nazis. Bush was elected to office honestly, which means his background was scrutinized at the time, and is connected with historically respected figures in both parties.

Boratino

"The problem here is that rich people group together into their own society."

That's what I'm saying. What is the war? It's a lucrative military business. Rich people get richer and poor get wounded and dismembered and killed. Hitlers election campaign was financed by American bankers, by the way.

Frank Warner

Business generally does a lot better in peace.

If war were so profitable, Iraq would have been a paradise after the Iran-Iraq war. It was no paradise, because it's wealth was wasted on repression and aggression.

American society isn't simply that "rich people get together." Rich people get together in any country. In America, rich people also can lose their wealth, and the poor can become the rich.

Democracies have a natural tendency to demand turnover: turnover of ideas, turnover of wealth, turnover of governments. That turnover means new ideas always are tested, the poor can pull out of poverty and the rich can fail, and new leaders can try new paths and policies. The turnover, the churning motion, regularly injects innovation into a free economic and political system.

By contrast, in Kazakhstan, only one group, headed by dictator Nazarbayev, holds all the economic and political power. Nazarbayev has stolen about $1 billion worth of oil revenue for himself, and he's rigged the political system so he can never lose an election.

That kind of system guarantees no turnover, no innovation. It stifles progress and eventually enslaves the population.

John

Frank...how do you explain billion dollar contracts with Halliburton and Blackwater? Private troop levels outnumbering (or nearly outnumbering) Federal troop levels? Contracts for infrastructure rebuilding that promise one thing, undeliver, and require more money to finish the job again (or not)? Surely someone is profiting off of that, no?

Frank Warner

It usually takes a combination of the private sector and public sector to get anything done, even to win a war.

As far as rebuilding infrastructure, it's a little difficult to do that when terrorists and insurgents are threatening builders and blowing up electric lines, sewer lines and schools before they're completed. Generally, you have to have security first. Hence, the need for many of those private security forces.

As democratic Iraq is secured, that infrastructure will be built. If I am not mistaken, Falluja is getting a new sewer system even as we speak.

Before the liberation of Iraq began, I said Vice President Cheney should resign to avoid the appearance of a conflict that inevitably would feed loony conspiracy theories about Halliburton. He didn't see the need to resign, and that's to his discredit. That others came up with loony conspiracy theories is to their discredit.

Who profited from Iraq's oil before the liberation of Iraq? Saddam's fascist Baathist party, which enforced a totalitarian terror for more than three decades. Even as Saddam siphoned Oil for Food money for payoffs and palaces, 5,000 to 10,000 Iraqis were dying each month for lack of food and medicine.

That says nothing of Saddam's mass graves, his wars, his regular tortures, and the relentless repression from which he profited. Iraq should have been freed much sooner.

As a democratic nation, Iraq will soon have its best chance ever to build a future in peace and prosperity. That's good for Iraqis and good for Americans.

As more nations are freed, the chance that we Americans will have to go to war with yet another dictatorship decreases. We'll be less likely to lose loved ones in wars. We won't be borrowing and spending hundreds of billions of dollars to fight tyranny.

That also means many more of the world's people will be free to apply their creative powers to produce breakthroughs in the arts and sciences. That will be good for everyone.

Alcyon

Hi, I know this is a rather late response - that's because I just stumbled on to this page now. For the moment, I just want to draw attention to the correct spelling:
It is "Gandhi", NOT "Ghandi".
I might write a more detailed response later :)

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