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« Talking Points Memo: Josh Marshall still talks about Social Security as if it is a self-sustaining ‘system’ | Main | Jennifer Wilbanks alive: Almost as surprising as finding Elizabeth Smart (except Wilbanks abducted herself) »

April 29, 2005


Red Star

Nice strategy there, warner. Getting a Mainlander China-man to reinforce your stale argument is like dressing behind a glass - everyones can see you.

One thing about a China-man who adovcates democracy from the Western world, you can't trust them. Why don't they figth for a cause with their own safety at stake by actually living in China? Look at Mandela, who endured 1/2 his entire life behind bars in S.Africa; and Martin Luther KIngJn who fought for Blacks rights in good'ol USofA and only to be shot and killed; and Gandhi in India, fighting for independence from UK. SO now look at all the China-man who fled to overseas and shout from across the sea. Now, would you trust those guys? Truly, the brave ones are in the politbuoro who supported the Tiannamen demonstration. One just died recently under house arrest(was it Yaobang? or Ziyang?). And what about those students? I laugh at them for running abroad to the States and getting scholarships to do MBAs at Harvard etc...but where are they now? With their MBAs they've all started small businesses to make money.

Frank Warner

You have a point there, Red. Sometimes it's hard to glean the truth about a repressive regime from those who have fled. Their perceptions automatically are colored by the fact they had to leave.

On the other hand, we have to ask ourselves, how do we get the most reliable information about a closed society? Most of those living in a dictatorship have been fed only government propaganda, or they fear they'll lose jobs or hurt their families if they speak out against the government.

This Pu seems an unusually brave man. But the simple fact that he is speaking is mind is something to give China's government credit for. Let's hope they keep moving in the direction of liberty.


Red Star has no point. Why are you
patronizing him? He makes no case for his
claim that you cannot trust a Chinese man
who advocates democracy from the Western
world. Where does that come from?

If you fight for freedom against the
illegitimate, repressive totalitarian
government of China, that government will
kill you or they will throw you in prison
and harvest your organs for money.

China's human rights record is among the worst.
The Chinese have the fewest freedoms.
They are not allowed to hear the truth.
The only reason China has begun to allow
private ownership is so that the elitists
of the Chinese Communist Party can keep what
they stole from the citizens of China.

Frank Warner

I gave Red the benefit of the doubt there because the Chinese man I am quoting does live in China. And I still believe those who flee generally can speak the truth far more freely than those who live there.

I give no dictator the benefit of the doubt.

jj mollo

That Red, he's lika man getting dressed in a coconut tree. Nobody can figure out what the heck is going on, and then they get conked on the head. The coconuts also make more sense.

So, he's saying that people come from China to the US and badmouth China where it's nice and safe and then they get rich. Not all that heroic maybe, but not bad either. It also sort of proves their point. Their opportunities were better here.

Now the guy that stays behind, he's bad too because he's showing his privates. Maybe Red is saying that guy shouldn't complain because it's disloyal? Or maybe he's saying that Frank shouldn't be quoting him because the guy is one of the brave ones. The real brave ones, Red thinks, are the big shots who took a chance on the Tiannamen movement and got burned because of it. They probably weren't nice guys. They just tried to ride the wrong wave.

Frank is quoting the right source. His message may be old, but it's not stale. I admire this guy Pu, but fear for his safety. To me the good and sensible course of action is to try to make a difference and not get squashed by a tank, but someone who goes beyond that should be respected.

Frank Warner

Hey, JJ, I like that comparison of Red to a man getting dressed in a coconut tree!

Hadn't heard that one before.


Red Star, his wife, and a young good looking
sailor were shipwrecked on an island. One
morning, the sailor climbed a tall coconut
tree to get dressed and yelled, "Stop making
love down there!"

"What's the matter with you?" Red Star said
when the sailor climbed down. "We weren't
making love."

"Sorry," said the sailor, "From up there it
looked like you were."

Every morning thereafter, the sailor scaled
the same coconut tree to get dressed and
yelled the same thing. Finally Red Star
decided to climb the tree, get dressed
and see for himself. With great difficulty,
he made his way to the top and got dressed.

Red Star says to himself, "By golly he's
right! It DOES look like they're making love
down there!"

Frank Warner

Rim shot!

jj mollo

Hey! That's a 3-pointer. George is smokin!

jj mollo

Pu's reference to the mines reminds me that we talked about China's coal industry a few months ago on this site.

At that time, Red Star thought that WWII was ancient history and not worth considering.

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