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« New York Times: ‘My Life’ reveals Bill Clinton understood early his lack of principle | Main | Ralph Nader for president: Now it’s Peter Camejo for vice president »

June 22, 2004

Comments

Lee

Michael Moore is indeed an ASSHOLE !
We need real Americans in this country. People who care for this country. Not anti American scum
like Michael Moore....

A veteran

Shall we censure the message because you hate the messenger? The message is Iraq wasn't a threat, we have our pipeline in Afghan(along with the taliban and warlords BACK in power, and the poppy heroin production skyhigh now.. and oh yeah, the BURKA is back), there ARE ties of this admin with Unocal, Enron, the Saudi family etc.. We HAVE "real Americans'" in this country.. and we have REAL sheep in this country who get their Foreign Policy from watching 10 mins of FOX news a week. There is no use in fighting a "right vs left" fight, it ONLY keeps us fighting against each other. The battle should be concerned US citizens against the actions and manipulations of the US govt (rep AND dem). Stand up, and be an American, not a patriotic sheep, following blidly under tactics of fear. Do your own research, and be an INFORMED AMERICAN, not a sheep...Hitler would be proud.

Frank Warner

Don't forget U.N. Resolution 688.

That resolution, rare at the United Nations, actually required that Saddam Hussein stop repressing and otherwise mistreating the Iraqi people.

Resolution 688 was the first U.N. resolution that President Bush referred to, in his Sept. 12, 2002, speech to the U.N., as proof of Saddam's status as international outlaw.

Saddam never stopped repressing and mistreating the Iraqi people. When the U.S.-led coalition brought down his fascist regime, Saddam held the world record among living dictators for deaths by war, genocide and state-ordered murder.

It was long past time to arrest that man. And I for one was relieved that no weapons of mass destruction showed up to interfere with the liberation of 25 million people.

Keep in mind it was Saddam's burden, under several other U.N. resolutions, to prove he had destroyed his WMDs and ended his illegal weapons programs. He failed to comply, violating the cease fire that saved his sorry ass in 1991.

Note that, on Nov. 14, 2002, Secretary of State Colin Powell said Saddam wouldn’t be off the hook even if he cooperated fully with the U.N. weapons inspectors.

“Let us not lose sight of the other U.N. resolutions that he has violated with respect to human rights, with respect to the return of prisoners [from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait], with respect to a lot of other things that he is responsible for," Powell said at that time. “And we just can’t walk away from those when disarmament occurs, if it occurs. So the burden is on him.”

Saddam violated the cease fire in many other ways. As a result, the battle resumed, the dictator was removed and Iraq finally is free.

Frank Warner

And Veteran, we have no pipeline in Afghanistan. Maybe a pipeline will be built. Maybe not. But contrary to Michael Moore’s insinuations, Unocal won’t be involved. Unocal dropped support for the pipeline in 1998. See: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/site/newsweek

A Veteran

911 didnt call for a WAR on Iraq. It certainly didn't call for a war based on manipulated data SOLD to the American people. If it was so "worthy" to take Saddam, a bullet could have easily solved that issue..
We stood by while this govt funded the weapons and chemicals to Iraq. We stood by during his atrocities.
Iraq was never a threat to the United States, and using lies and manipulations to "sell" a war in itself should be discussed more thoroughly.

The war was over a threat..and when the "threat"
was deemed ludicrous and falsely sold, more justfications ensued..
a 45 min launch time..
the Mobile labs....
STOCKPILES of wmd's in unheard of numbers that even the weapons inspectors stated were untrue...
The unmanned drones that were going to "invade" America's shores (the USAF laughed at such an idea as ludicrous)...
Yellowcake (Joe Wilson and the Nuclear agency debunked this easily as forged)...
the 10 year old college thesis used by the admin...
Aluminum tubes...

No threat No link Not 911... As I've stated, I'm all for a war on the perps that hit us on 911 (and that points more to Saudi than anyone else), but attacking/invading/ destroying/ and occupying Iraq did NO good in our cause, it most certainly, and now obviously, hindered our trust with our allies, and our continuing efforts to wage a "successful" war on terrorism.

As for the Unocal, yes I'm well aware of their "deal" that was thwarted in Afghan. The pipeline is well on its way, with AFGHAN PRESIDENT Harmid Karzai, a former Unocal consultant heading this project now.
Only nine days after Karzai's ascension, President Bush nominated another UNOCAL consultant and former Taliban defender, Zalmay Khalilzad, as his special envoy to Afghanistan.
(any of these names sound familiar? Guess it's "merely" simple coincidence..) Let's not forget Chalabi either, or any of the other "hookups" that are probably a "waste of time" to research for many...Perhaps Halliburton can screw the American taxpayer on THIS issue as well if THEY take it.
(Halliburton is also "capable" since they are a pipeline services vendor)
Incredible coincidences all over the place...


Frank Warner

So Veteran, you didn’t care that Saddam Hussein led a fascist government, torturing and murdering Iraqis and invading other nations? You didn’t mind if that went on forever?

You didn’t care that Saddam held the world record among living dictators for deaths by war, genocide and state-ordered murder?

Or, are you arguing, with the dishonest sloppiness of a Michael Moore, that because the United States “tilted” toward Iraq (only to make sure it did not lose to another repressive dictatorship) during the Iran-Iraq war, then the United States never ever could make Saddam pay for his crimes against humanity?

Isn’t that like saying that, because we allied ourselves temporarily with Josef Stalin during World War II, then we never could oppose Communist repression and aggression after World War II? We shouldn’t have defended South Korea, Taiwan, Japan or Western Europe?

After the U.S.-led coalition pushed Saddam’s invading army out of Kuwait in 1991, the first President Bush called on the Iraqis to rise up against their dictator. (And contrary to your inaccurate recollection, Bush did not “promise” to help them in their rebellion.)

About 200,000 Iraqis were slaughtered by Saddam’s henchmen as a result of the 1991 uprisings. The massive resistance proved that Iraqis, like unfree people everywhere, hunger for the liberties that are their human right.

Saddam’s mass murders that year were justification enough for the liberation that was to come.

But if you’re like Michael Moore, there’s no end to the excuses for fascist dictators. (Someone wanted a pipeline in Afghanistan, so naturally Saddam must stay in power. Saddam killed more than 1 million with conventional weapons, so Saddam must stay in power.)

All dictators must go. That mandate is in the United Nations’ 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The Free World can’t remove all dictators at once, but we can pick them off, one or two at a time. Unless we’re just too selfish to care.

Frank Warner

A Veteran

You seem to ASSume, incorrectly (as others do when faced with the truth) that I don't think Saddam was a bad guy? So that makes me and others who disagree "Saddam followers" and "appeasers"? Hardly.

"After the U.S.-led coalition pushed Saddam’s invading army out of Kuwait in 1991, the first President Bush called on the Iraqis to rise up against their dictator. (And contrary to your inaccurate recollection, Bush did not “promise” to help them in their rebellion.)"

That's not what I was told the CIA told the Iraqis, and my fleet of US Marines what were with me were told. Perhaps YOU were there with me and
2nd Marine Division in Iraq in 1991? The Iraqis WERE told we would help them if they rose up. Did I hear Bush Sr say it myself? Of course not, but it was passed down to us, to the translators, and plenty of "Haji". So no, My recollection of the events pertaining to a PROMISE, is quite intact.

There was no threat, there was no link, and they were not 911. It's more obvious than ever.
"If you already have WMD'S, and you are nowhere near the Caspian Sea, Please.. with Allah's most humble blessings, continue on with your dictatorships..." US FOREIGN POLICY

Frank Warner

American foreign policy, in general, has opposed dictatorships and promoted democracy. Of course, no nation -- no coalition -- can remove every dictatorship at once.

During World War II, we made that temporary alliance with Stalin to oppose the greater threat of the time, but then we cast that alliance aside after the war to oppose Soviet repression and aggression.

And now, it's not unreasonable to continue pushing for the end of dictatorships, starting with those responsible for killing the most people, starting with those who have violated the most internationally approved resolutions.

Of course, if you're Michael Moore or his fellow appeasers, there is no dictatorship worth toppling, no people worth freeing.

And if the United States removes a dictatorship, you can be sure Moore, like the Democrats who opposed Lincoln all those years ago, will concoct some ulterior motive to dishonor the heroic act of liberation.

According to one conspiracy theory, Operation Iraqi Freedom was to steal Iraq's oil. So where's my free Iraqi oil?

Frank Warner

A Veteran

It seems "removing" a dictator in iraq, has done the opposite of what we were told. Perhaps Chile, Nicaruagua, and the Ft benning's "School of America's" that gave us Noreiga can shed some light on things.

"Of course, if you're Michael Moore or his fellow appeasers, there is no dictatorship worth toppling, no people worth freeing."

I don't recall Moore or any of his "appeasers" ever stating, "no Dictator worth toppling" or "no people worth freeing".. I DO however, see that he and others rightly feel that attacking Iraq was a mistake, and it's pretty common sense. This has become a 'right vs left' fight that's not focusing on the TRUE matters at hand. Moore and others, are not attacking this admin because they are "republicans". They are being questioned because manipulated data was used going into a country and against a people that were not 911...America DESERVES her revenge for 911. WE deserve justice. When an admin states Osama is not important, when there ARE ties to Halliburton, Enron, etc , when there was blatant stalling on a 911 commission, when this admins lies on Tax cuts, No Child Left behind, First Responders cut, VA Benefits cut, Frist Families "healthcare/drug company/prescription Medicare "reform", "clean air" intiative, etc etc etc... then it becomes not a repub vs dem fight, but an AMERICAN PEOPLE vs the US govt/corporation fight.
If "republicans" or tons of "democrats" refuse to stand up and take notice of what THIS admin , and prior admins (yes dems TOO)have done, then we no longer abide by being American's, but instead become a "party" label. FREEDOM, begins when you say no...

truth_man

Let's take another look:
mobile labs? still questionable (contrary to your statement) -- never deemed fully suitable for helium making (as claimed) and never deemed fully suitable for manufacturing biological weapons.
Alum tubes? You failed to answer important questions regarding these and refuse to acknowledge they were obtained in violation of UN Resolutions.
yellowcake? Iraq was definitely pursuing it. You focus on one fake document (which I even admit) and, like an OJ Simpson juror, use it to throw out all the other facts.
45 minute launch? never claimed by Bush.
unmanned drones? drones were found
stockpiles of WMD's? There was no reason to believe that Saddam did not have WMDs. He had anthrax as late as 2001. Tell us where it is.

Now, let's take a step back and see what else we have.

Your April Glaspie story: a lie. Normally, I would simply say you were misinformed but it seems only fair that you should be held to the same truth standard that you apply to President Bush. You dwell on the forged yellowcake documents which don't even alter the conclusion. That's the best you've got. But the worst you have is a known falsehood. Despite claims of "research beyond belief," you still use a lie to attempt to make your feeble case.

In every case of your claimed Bush lies, there is very good evidence to show that he did not lie.
You loathe President Bush for his alledged lies yet you lie to make your case. Bush didn't lie; you did. You passed on some important questions (despite your "beyond belief" research). Your credibility is gone. Are you even, as you claim, a veteran? I have my doubts.

So, taking your example, now we will be like OJ Simpson jurors. Since you have been caught in a lie, we will ignore anything else you have to say. Besides, there is no sense debating someone who lies.

A Veteran

uh.... why did you copy and paste the exact same response to two different convos?
I suppose I will answer the exact same questions for you here..on this thread then..


"mobile labs? still questionable (contrary to your statement) -- never deemed fully suitable for helium making (as claimed)C."

and where is the evidence of a threat in this answer? Not pointing to a threat, but instead, AGAIN, pointing to ANTOHER IF, on top of an answer given --never deemed fully suitable for helium making (as claimed) and -- never deemed fully suitable for manufacturing biological weapons.
But chemical weapons experts, engineers, chemists and military systems experts contacted by The Observer , say the layout and equipment found on the trailers is entirely inconsistent with the vehicles being mobile labs.
A separate investigation published by the New York Times discloses that the trailers have now been investigated by THREE different teams of Western experts, with the third and most senior group of analysts apparently divided sharply over their function.
'I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter,' a senior analyst said of a tank supposed to be capable of multiplying seed germs into lethal swarms. The government's public report, he said, 'was a rushed job and looks political'.
That sure beats the hell out of ANOTHER "if"...
YOU say they can't say it was or wasnt?
again, That sure beats the hell out of ANOTHER "if"...

"Alum tubes? You failed to answer important questions regarding these and refuse to acknowledge they were obtained in violation of UN Resolutions."

and YOU fail to show they WERE a threat...
Three senior Iraqi nuclear scientists, stated in interviews that Iraq had no efforts to use the tubes in centrifuges. U.S. investigators in Iraq have not produced any
evidence to contradict these Iraqis’ statements, despite months of investigations.
However, a set of technical experts from the Department of Energy’s (DOE) Oak Ridge, Livermore, and Los Alamos National Laboratories reviewed the CIA analysis and disagreed with this interpretation because the tube dimensions were far from ideal for this purpose. In fact, the dimensions and the aluminum alloy were identical to those of tubes acquired for rockets by Iraq in the 1980s. Furthermore, the Iraqis had developed and tested centrifuges before the first Gulf War that were much more capable than those that could have been built with the imported tubes.
The DOE experts also pointed out that if these tubes were actually intended for centrifuges, there should be evidence of attempts by the Iraqis to acquire hundreds of thousands of other very specific components, but no such evidence existed. This critique of the CIA interpretation was seconded by the State Department’s intelligence branch and, independently, by an international group of centrifuge experts advising the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
Now, have we cleared that one up also?

"yellowcake? Iraq was definitely pursuing it. You focus on one fake document (which I even admit) and, like an OJ Simpson juror, use it to throw out all the other facts."

Yeah? So NOW your changing your story from "they were trying to get it from Africa" --which the below AGAIN will show they weren't--, to "iraq was definately pursuing it.
You forgot to put this in your statement above, so let me reiterate it here...
"Finally, the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR's assessment, highly dubious." Then Joe Wilson proved it wrong, and so did the Nuclear Agency...
Let's repeat what they SAID about this issue, since there are so many "reasons" to believe, and I need to do more research...“These documents are so bad that I cannot imagine that they came from a serious intelligence agency. It depresses me, given the low quality of the documents, that it was not stopped. At the level it reached, I would have expected more checking.” The IAEA quickly realised that the documents - handed over by the US - were fake. The most glaring mistake was a letter purportedly signed by a Niger minister who had been out of office for 10 years.


"45 minute launch? never claimed by Bush."

Indeed, it was stated by Blair in a September dossier. Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC) on Thursday also criticized British defense chief Geoff Hoon, saying it was "disturbed" he did not disclose full details of staff concerns over the dossier.
The initial failure of the Ministry of Defence to reveal details of those concerns was "unhelpful and potentially misleading," the committee's report said.

"unmanned drones? drones were found"

In Cincinnati, Bush insisted that "Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs for missions targeting the United States." Powell reiterated that claim in his presentation to the UN in February.
as for what was found...jesus.. yes they were FOUND, but get the whole story RIGHT....
Bush claims about Saddam's weapons capability have been undermined yet again with the discovery of remnants of Iraqi unmanned drones. The inside of their fuselage shows that they were never capable of spreading toxins but to were designed to fly reconnaissance missions, as claimed by US AIR FORCE officials before the war. (AP) - Huddled over a fleet of abandoned Iraqi drones, U.S. weapons experts in Baghdad came to one conclusion: Despite the Bush administration's public assertions, these unmanned aerial vehicles weren't designed to dispense biological or chemical weapons.
The evidence gathered this summer matched the dissenting views of U.S. air force intelligence analysts who argued before the war with Iraq that the remotely piloted planes were unarmed reconnaissance drones.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/08/24/168088-ap.html

"stockpiles of WMD's? There was no reason to believe that Saddam did not have WMDs. He had anthrax as late as 2001. Tell us where it is."

DAVID KAY, FMR. U.S. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Based on what I've seen is that we are very unlikely to find large stockpiles of weapons.
Kay has gone public with assertions that there were no large stockpiles of weapons, no biological labs, no advanced program, and no nuclear weapons.
The Weapons Inspectors have stated over and over again they got rid of aobut 90-95 percent of Iraq's WMD's around 1998, and anything that remained was probably useless.
The UN Inspectors, the US Inspectors etc etc etc., have all stated this...

"Your April Glaspie story: a lie. Normally, I would simply say you were misinformed but it seems only fair that you should be held to the same truth standard that you apply to President Bush. You dwell on the forged yellowcake documents which don't even alter the conclusion. That's the best you've got. But the worst you have is a known falsehood. Despite claims of "research beyond belief," you still use a lie to attempt to make your feeble case."

Do you not read the info I'm giving you? These arent "opinions", these are facts contrary to the admins proven manipulations. I fail to see where you think I'M making this up when I give you info
proving it.... As for April Glaspie??
HERE>BUT WE HAVE NO OPINION ON THE ARAB-ARAB CONFLICTS, LIKE YOUR BORDER DISAGREEMENT WITH KUWAIT.
I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late 60's. The instruction we had during this period was that WE SHOULD EXPRESS NO OPINION ON THIS ISSUE AND THAT THE ISSUE IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH AMERICA . James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.---APRIL GLASPIE
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html

"You loathe President Bush for his alledged lies yet you lie to make your case. Bush didn't lie; you did. You passed on some important questions (despite your "beyond belief" research). Your credibility is gone. Are you even, as you claim, a veteran? I have my doubts. "

Who lied? the US Inspectors? the UN Inspectors?
I've shut down your "opinions and assumptions" with facts. MY credibility is gone? lol yeah..
And as for not "believing" my "claim" of being a veteran, I could care less what you "think". Your "thoughts" and "ASSumptions" haven't done you well.

"So, taking your example, now we will be like OJ Simpson jurors. Since you have been caught in a lie, we will ignore anything else you have to say. Besides, there is no sense debating someone who lies."

Wow...I'm trying to recall the "lie"...but it seems my info has inflamed you PAST assumptions, beliefs, and hatred.. to outright ridiculing. I've given all you've asked of me. I think those who read our conversation up to this point are smart enough to realize your FOX news tactics..


RE: Mr. MOO

Michael Moore:
YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON.

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