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« Brave Words: This has to be the interview of the year! | Main | 'Fahrenheit 9-11': Why did Michael Moore censor Nick Berg? »

May 27, 2004

Comments

Pei Whe Hsu

Exactly Frank! Thanks for your ever word!

I am from Taiwan and I see us as an independent country since 50 years ago. For 50 years, we have our own president, goverment. We pay our own tax. China did not build a bridge, building, school in Taiwan. China have no contribution to Taiwan. We function just like two independent countries.

Exactly, if China is a free country like Taiwan. We might be happy to join them. Taiwan has being a free country for 50 years and it is still improving. We can't give up all our rights and all the democracy we worked so hard to achieve today.

I can't say I am not afraid of war. We all do. But we shall not give in.

jj

This is why the U.S. still has its Cold War military machine and it's why we need to maintain forces in Asia. We have to talk nice to the Chinese, but we cannot let them eat up Taiwan. Hong Kong was a test case, as they well know, but they're not doing too well there even with the scrutiny.

Frank Warner

Unfortunately, that Cold War machinery won't be able to help Taiwan if Beijing wants to take it in 2006 or later.

The big reason responsible nations of the Free World are trying so hard to stop nuclear proliferation is that nuclear weapons in the hands of dictatorships make free nations nearly impotent to counter the dictator's aggression. The United States must back the cause of freedom everywhere, but it has no obligation to commit suicide in the process.

All we can do is challenge the Chinese to build on their economic liberalization with political liberalization. That is a delicate task, because talk of freedom offends dictators, as Tiananmen Square showed 15 years ago.

We of course believe mainland China should be free before a free Taiwan rejoins the mother nation. But pride and power are driving the Chinese dictatorship to gobble up Taiwan, destroy its liberty and then talk about definitions of democracy later.

Keep an eye on Hong Kong. The world's scrutiny doesn't seem to be deterring Beijing from stripping Hong Kong of its democratic institutions.

Our big chance to put the Chinese dictatorship on the spot - "What's it going to be? Repression or freedom?" - will be the 2008 Olympics. Let's use the spotlight skillfully.

Frank Warner

jj

I wish we could count on the Olympics to hold them back. Someday, they will have so many profitable connections with Taiwan and the West that they will not want to take any unnecessary risks, but that time has not yet come. We, on the other hand, have already taken our risk by invading Iraq and exposing our flanks in the East.

There is a window of threat here, at least a perception of weakness. Bear in mind that the Soviets were not hesitant to invade Afghanistan before hosting the Olympics. After our success in Iraq becomes apparent to all, however, China and North Korea will have a revised opinion on our capability and willingness, just as RR was able to adjust the Soviet's view of us by taking unpopular, but necessary, actions.

Red Star

China should attack just after the Olympics finishes up with its closing ceremonies. By attaching Taiwan at this opportunistic time, the spectators/tourists attending the Games can be held as a defacto hostage - against Taiwan retaliating or the Americans interfering!

Red Star

Why is Taiwan not part of China? Just because Taiwan developed into a quasi- independent "country" with seperate economic and political structure doesn't mean it does not belong to China. The real argument that any territory belongs to a claimant nation is though historical claims and/or though sheer war and invasion - force.

As for the interfering/hypocritical/double-stardard Americans....I can only say this:
Taipei = Los Anglese? I think not. And the Americans should think twice, just because they were able to stare down the Russians in the Cuban Missile Crisis, doesn't mean the Chinese too will back down.

Frank Warner

Yo, Red,

If the Beijing government were democratic and free, Taiwan probably would be happy to be part Mainland China's system.

As things are today, Beijing has declared independence from all of China and simply forces its illegitimate will on 1.3 billion people.

Adding Taiwan to its list of victims might make the Beijing dictatorship feel stronger. But it only makes China weaker.

A free China would overwhelm the world in peace. A repressive China, under the unelected Beijing regime, invites new disasters on the scale of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Free China.

jj

Historical prerogatives always depend on point in time and point of view. Maybe Jerusalem should revert to France since it was ruthlessly removed from the possession of Frenchmen by Saladin and others. Invasion of Taiwan would make as much sense as a US invasion of Canada -- vaguely historical but very, very counter-productive.

Nothing "belongs" to China except by will of the people and strength of arms. Mao's victories can be taken as justified because of historical injustices and events of the time. There is no similar justification for stealing Taiwan. Taiwan is a happy and free country that provides adequately for its people. China cannot say the same for itself just yet. It is a boastful father who does not deserve his son.

Red Star

9% annulized economic growth over a span of 20 odd years!! Is that a disaster on a scale like that of the Great Leap?

As for China being repressive, have you ever lived there? China may have an authoritarian state, but it's economic strenght grows because of it. The authoritarian states is a prerequsite for a stable and orderly state for China to achieve its economic and military standings.

Frank Warner

Hi Red again,

You won't be saying anything good about authoritarian states 20 years from now. You will have learned from fuller experience.

China's economy has expanded as China's freedom has expanded. Eventually, the dictatorship will have to make a choice: Surrender power to democracy, or shut down the whole economy.

Carl

And why is it called "China" now and not "Red China"? Is this a PC thing?

jj

Red,

China's economic growth has been phenomenal, and you might be right that they have needed an authoritarian government to keep them focused. Singapore certainly has done well with a government that is basically a benign dictatorship, but what is there to keep such a government from becoming less benign?

The threat against Taiwan, however, is an immature pose maintained for the purpose of advancing Chinese nationalism, no different than the Arab claim to Israel. It is perhaps a just revenge for all the years that Taiwan claimed ownership of China, but it makes no more sense. Keeping the world in a state of fear does not help the welfare of the Chinese people.

The Hong Kong takeover was justified by the expiration of a lease. OK. What justified the takeover of Tibet? Are the people of Tibet better off than they were? Wait, are there any Tibetans left in Tibet?

Red Star

Surrender power to democracy? Democracy is not a rose, by which by any other name is still NOT a democracy. Just because a state is democratic is not necessarily truly democratic. Many soverign states have a dominant single party (Japan and Singapore for example) and yet they are called democratic. Remember, "it does matter the colour of the cat, as long as it catches mice" So don't jump on the American bandwagon and critize China's political structure.

Arab's claim to Israel? Well, the only reason Israel can claim the territory on which it occupies is because it occupies it. Historically, the nomads of those regions have always been wanders and thus no one can clain it as it's ancestoral home.
But hell, as for China, it's only playing the what has been played for centuries - the taking of land from the indeginous people.
Examples:
Europeans -- N.America --- native indians
S.europeans - S.America --- native indians
China -- Taiwan -- indigenous peoples (the taiwanese).

etc...

RedStar

why not "red china" why don't you ask the WESTERN media and politicians....i'm sure they are the ones who coined up that phrase. Recall, they were after all on a Communist witch hunt in the 1950-60s.

Carl

OK. Red China it is-- but that only covers the mainland.

jj

Mao is the one to call China "Red", meaning communist. China is no longer communist, though it still has an anti-democratic political structure.

The scope of permitted competition in the marketplace of ideas is the measure of a democracy. The US can handle anything except Al Quaeda and NAMBLA. The PRC can't even deal with the harmless dolts in Falan Gong.

The Chinese control over Taiwan is already considerable. They recently forced the US to tell the Taiwanese to quash a referendum on independence. The ROCs are reluctant, but they will say what they are told to say if it makes the PRC happy. Don't imagine for a minute, however, that they will accept an actual invasion. The US will also be happy to say whatever makes PRC happy, but they will also provide whatever militay assistance that Taipei requests.

Frank Warner

I don't know how much military assistance the U.S. could or would give if totalitarian China invaded democratic Taiwan.

But China immediately would lose its $120 billion trade surplus with the United States, and even a ruthless dictatorship can't handle a shock that large.

Carl

Are we now saying China has renounced the teachings and philosophy of Mao and, as such, shouldn't be called Red China any longer?

I have a problem thinking a taste of capitalism, even within China, Red or not, is a measure of democracy.

jj

Carl,

Of course they can't say anything bad about Mao, but China is no longer communist. It's hard to say what they are, a mixture really, but there are probably more capitalists in China than in the US now.

Red Star

China's trade surplus is more advantagous to the Americans. Reason: capitalism. The USA adheres to the philosophy of free market forces which leads to competition and a lowerinng of comsumer prices to the buying americans. Ordinary Americans are benefitting by the cost of everyday consumer goods produced in China and other lower cost centers(I'm not talking here about the larger capital/knowledge intensive goods).

I agree to some degree jj's comments that the average Chinese are more capitalistic than the americans. There are more individual family mom n pop stores there than in the States.

Frank Warner

Free (and fair) trade in general helps everyone, but face it, China is collecting $120 billion a year more from the U.S. than the U.S. collects from China.

If China invaded Taiwan, that trade would be cut off and the U.S. would reopen its textile mills or buy more clothes from Bangladesh. China suddenly would have lost half its market.

And the point of invading Taiwan? To spread repression? Since when has repression helped anyone but dictators?

Red Star

Go ahead and try opening up the textile mill in the USA! See what the labour costs going to be. There is a reason why certain sectors get pushed offshore.

Your ignorance is showing Frankie baby!

You think the world needs the USA? Why? Trade is a TWO way street. The USA does not dole out favours, money, or in your argument Trade Surpluses.

Why invade Taiwan? Let me ask you: why did the States (and the Western nations for that matter) possess so many foreing territories? If you find me ONE good reason, I'll eat my hat!

Going back to trade. Do you know why Hong Kong (and few other Chinese ports - IN China) was under the British? These territories were lost during the Opium War, a war which the British conived under false pretenses (just like the Japs who took over Manchuria under a false accusation just to attack China). China at that time had a HUGE trade surplus with the British (Brits got into the fad of buying tonnes of Chinese Tea, but China didn't need/require any commodoties from the "Barbarians." Oh, of course, war machinery was not included. And so long story short. Brits exported Opium to create and additive Chinese society. China confiscated the goods from the Brits and that lead to war.

Ok. Now the finally. You in the West cherish "Freedom" so much. Well, you are a bunch of hippocrates and full of contradictions. When did the Black Americans gain their Freedom? Don't give me any bullshit that it was just after the Americna Civil War over 150 yrs ago. Black Americans were abused/oppressed/repressed/dog attached/lynched/car-dragged anywhere from the last 50yrs to a few yrs in the past. Don't give me this bs about Oprahs, Jordans, Jacksons etc...those are only the few (and I emphasize a FEW) very public visible personalities; but the rest of black america is still ostersized.

Carl

Irrational rant alert.

Red Neck

Moron alert: Carl is in da room!

Red Neck

Carl is in self denial ! !

lol <**so typical**yawn : 0 **>

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